[Ranger Bob]

Hello All! Wondering if Anybody has experienced this Scenario...
Yesterday morning, when My Classic was stone cold, I had to crank for an abnormally long time to get it started. It would only "Sputter" occasionally, and finally barely started, running on one cylinder only. After about 30 seconds the other cylinder started to fire, and another 30 seconds the bike appeared to "Clean Out" and run fine. Went on a very long ride thru the local twisties (92F outside), and when returned home, gas tank (and gas in tank) was very warm (actually HOT). Today, again, almost the same situation. Bike was stone cold, fired (sputtered) a few times initially, and unlike yesterday, would only crank over and would not start. I could smell "raw gasoline" coming from the muffler! I realize that the scrambler is fuel injected, and should have not suffered from "carburetor style flooding". Fortunately, I live on a long grade, and was able take a chance, and to "bump" start the bike. After about 15~20 seconds going down the hill in 4th gear, the bike again started to sputter, and about 2 minutes later "cleaned out" and again started running properly. As I was riding, this got Me to thinking about the "overly rich mixture" situation... I had (I think) an idea.. If the Fuel Injection system and related sensors are functioning properly (I assume they are, or I guess bike would have other issues), what could make the bike be sooo rich (remember, I could smell raw gasoline) that the injection system could not compensate (again also remember the HOT gasoline from the day before, and probably getting hotter with the heat bellowing up from the rear cylinder after I put the bike in the garage)? That Charcoal Canister! That thing must be full of raw gas from the super heated gas in the gas tank! I assume (may be wrong) that is all mechanical, not controlled by the electronics and "flooding raw gas into the intake manifolds! That kinda makes sense to Me. Before I rip that thing off of My Classic, has anybody else had any issues like this? Am I completely of base? I an 300 miles from My Ducati dealer (None in My state) and gotta figure stuff out on My own... Any thoughts from anyone?

 

[JaFlo]

I'm not sure if fuel injected bikes work this way, but on a car if you hold the accelerator pedal to the floor while cranking it puts the injection system in "clear flood" mode. This disables the injectors but the spark plugs will continue to fire. Next time this happens to you, try holding the throttle wide open while cranking.

As for why your having the problem in the first place, it's hard to say without any data from a scan tool. Your theory on the evap canister is a stretch, but plausible. It usually only happens when you overfill the tank. It's easy to pull the canister off to check if it's full of fuel. While it's off, toss it in the trash. A lot of people, including myself, permanently remove the canister because it looks hideous hanging off the side!

I would also check the intake air temp reading before starting. If it's reading way off (too cold), this will cause injection time while cranking to be very long and give an overly rich air/fuel ratio.

 

[Ranger Bob]

Hello JaFlo! Tried both ways! Throttle wide open and throttle closed... Only about 20 pops and sputters when initially cranking, and then nothing! After about 5 attempts of about 10 ~ 15 seconds, that is when I decided to try to bump start, with success.. But You make a great point... My garage is in the basement of My house and it is about 60 degrees F in there, and I pushed the bike outside, in 90 degree F weather... Maybe the ambient air sensor is getting the ECU confused... Any thoughts?

 

[JaFlo]

It's possible the sudden change in ambient temperature is causing an overly rich cranking mixture, but I would think it would have to be a larger temperature difference than 30 degrees. You could try starting it in the garage to see if the problem still occurs, or let it sit outside for a while before attempting to start. If it starts normally, you know that is the issue.

Do you have a Boosterplug installed?

 

[vincelp]

Hello

If your bike has been running on one cylinder, due to a spark issue, it's quite normal it smells gasoline because the non-running cylinder will have rejected unconsumed gasoline in the exhaust and mainly in the catalyser.

A too hot engine is generally due to a too lean mixture, not a too rich which acts as a coolant in the cylinder. Which color are your exhaust tube near the cylinders ? Are they deep blue or did they remain unchanged ?

 

[rider]

I wonder if it's time to check the spark plugs ?

 

[dfelix]

Scrambler EFI is very raw and simple.
However, is never a good idea to start it with throttle grip FWO!

If you smell gasoline it means that injectors are working and you have enough battery to make engine turn over.
Like vincelp said it could be spark-related issues.

Is this a recurring problem?

Did you used a jet wash to clean your bike recently?
A cold start with too much throttle can make spark plugs get soaked.
Poor quality gasoline could also be a problem.

Ensure your bike electrical components are perfectly dry.
Try some premium gasoline from a different station.
If problem persist, remove a spark plug and check if it looks OK. (dry and slightly brown color)

Most probably is a simple detail.
You should focus on this small but common issues before wondering about worst case scenarios could be some ignition malfunction or ignition coils are damaged.


Good luck!

 

[Ranger Bob]

Hello All!
Thanks for all of the insight with My starting issues!
No booster Plug... I have only had the bike for 10 days!
When the "Raw Gas" smell from the exhaust was detected, the engine was not running... Only cranking over.
Been riding motorcycles for 50 years... All were carbureted (I think that is how You spell it in the US) and air cooled machines - First experience with EFI and Ambient Temperature Sensors.
Bike has never been "overheated".. I do not allow any air cooled machines to sit around and idle. I used to service Honda 4 cylinder air cooled bikes and had two large fans that blew air around the engines when I synchronized the carburetors! I have even been known to kill the engine when sitting at "extra long traffic lights"!
After engine mixture cleans out, it runs super in all aspects... Super power, torque and idle. As expected!
I don't believe that the bike is running hot... But outside air temperature has been in the 90's F here in WV... Again, I don't think it is running rich or lean after it cleans out! Just the starting issue!
Exhaust system is normal colors. No burnishing color differences between the cylinders.
No water has come in contact with the machine! Still pristinely clean as it only has about 300 miles since it left the dealership!
First day starting issue was with original fuel from the dealership. The second day "No Start" was with Ethanol Free Gasoline. Since have filled the tank with 10% Ethanol blended Gasoline (the standard fuel available in the USA). I will take a ride later today. Since I know the bike will eventually start by "bumping", I will push the bike outside, and see if the air temperature has the same effect on the bike (as before) but with the Ethanol blend fuel. If starting issue is still there, then tomorrow, as JaFlo has suggested, I will start the bike in the 60 F garage. Only want to make one change at a time.

Again, Thanking All for the insight!

 

[rider]

Oh, the bike is brand new then, I wonder if the dealer should be thinking to re-flash the ECM in case the MAP file is corrupt

 

[Ranger Bob]

Hello (Again) All!
I think maybe My Classic is an Alcoholic!
Pushed it outside (a bit cooler this AM (82F) than it has been) and with the 10 percent Ethanol blended Gasoline, it started somewhat correctly! It sputtered a bit, but started running on both cylinders... and after about 10 seconds, was running great! Will do some additional cold bike / hot ambient starting with more of the Ethanol blend Gasoline. Don't know if My starting problem is solved but will report of My findings!

Thanks again!

 

[Mike Westall]

Something is definitely not right. My Icon lives in a cool basement and I push it outside before starting. It starts almost instantly every time on mid 90's days here in SC and runs smoothly thereafter. At home diagnosis of problems with these computer controlled EFI bikes is near impossible. I would take it back to the dealer and let them fix it.

 

[rider]

I now wonder if there was some water in the original tank of fuel ?

 

[greer]

I now wonder if there was some water in the original tank of fuel ?

My thoughts, too. Keep us posted, Ranger Bob.

Sarah

 

[vincelp]

Hello

If you had some water in the fuel tank, as it heavier than gasoline, it would gather in the lower part of the tank, ie. around the fuel pump and, if there's enough, your bike wouldn't start or run at all.

According to the described symptoms, I would rather say that something is wrong in the spark circuit. This would explain for ex. the fact that sometimes the engine only run on a single cylinder.

 

[Ranger Bob]

Hello All!
Started the Classic this morning, and start routine was perfect! Engine turned over about two times, and it purred to life as it should! No drama at all! One thing I did do, which may or may not have a bearing on cold starting, was I turned on a Dehumidifier in My basement garage... It puts out a little heat (and, of course, dehumidified air) and it raised the room temperature from about 60 degrees F to about 70 F. And it was only 82 F outside. The Bike started very easily... Will try another starting episode tomorrow!

 

[Mike Westall]

Scrambler EFI is very raw and simple.
However, is never a good idea to start it with throttle grip FWO!

If you smell gasoline it means that injectors are working and you have enough battery to make engine turn over.
Like vincelp said it could be spark-related issues.

Is this a recurring problem?

Did you used a jet wash to clean your bike recently?
A cold start with too much throttle can make spark plugs get soaked.
Poor quality gasoline could also be a problem.

Ensure your bike electrical components are perfectly dry.
Try some premium gasoline from a different station.
If problem persist, remove a spark plug and check if it looks OK. (dry and slightly brown color)

Most probably is a simple detail.
You should focus on this small but common issues before wondering about worst case scenarios could be some ignition malfunction or ignition coils are damaged.


Good luck!

I'd say never ever let a jet wash / pressure washer anywhere near your motorcycles. No good can come of it.

 

[Mike Westall]

Hello All!
Started the Classic this morning, and start routine was perfect! Engine turned over about two times, and it purred to life as it should! No drama at all! One thing I did do, which may or may not have a bearing on cold starting, was I turned on a Dehumidifier in My basement garage... It puts out a little heat (and, of course, dehumidified air) and it raised the room temperature from about 60 degrees F to about 70 F. And it was only 82 F outside. The Bike started very easily... Will try another starting episode tomorrow!

That is interesting. I do keep my basement down to 55% with a dehumidifier.

 

[Mike Westall]

Hello

If you had some water in the fuel tank, as it heavier than gasoline, it would gather in the lower part of the tank, ie. around the fuel pump and, if there's enough, your bike wouldn't start or run at all.

According to the described symptoms, I would rather say that something is wrong in the spark circuit. This would explain for ex. the fact that sometimes the engine only run on a single cylinder.

There are probably close to a dozen electrical sensors sending info to the EFI computer that performs the EFI fuel map lookup and "decides" how much gas to inject. If even one of those is screwed up the effects on starting and/or running can be really nasty. The fact that the bike runs fine after it warms up is odd --- but it could be that a sensor is failing only when cold. If only one of the cyls is consistently afflicted it would likely be a sensor applicable to that cyl (I'm definitely NOT a motorcycle tech --- but I've worked in the Computer business for 40 years as a CS Professor and industry consultant --

 

[Ranger Bob]

Hello Mike!
I too have an analytical background. That is why I only like to change one thing at a time, an then make an evaluation of the outcome.. I retired in 2008 from Agilent Technologies (Hewlett Packard spun us off in 2001) Analytical Products Division as a field service Technician... That is kinda how We were taught... Oh Well...

Pushed the bike out a bit ago, and it started flawlessly! Again, about 72F with low humidity in basement garage, and about 80F outside. Bike turned over maybe two times and purred like a cat...

I think the proof will be to take a long ride on a 90F day, stopping occasionally (as I did before) which unintentionally will let massive amounts of heat from the rear cylinder migrate upward toward the tank / gasoline.... Remember.. The tank / gasoline, when parked for the evening, was exceptionally HOT! It is going to be hot here this weekend, and maybe I will try to take a long ride, park the Classic in the basement hot, and do an evaluation the next day!

 

[vincelp]

Hello

It puts out a little heat (and, of course, dehumidified air) and it raised the room temperature from about 60 degrees F to about 70 F. And it was only 82 F outside. The Bike started very easily... Will try another starting episode tomorrow!

Interesting, but a bike should start and run in any conditions, don't you think so ?

This winter, mine also had some strange behaviour when starting it outside by a low temperature, just after pulling it out from a warm garage. I had to maintain the throttle open like a starter. I definitively think that the air sensor captor is sending wrong information to the EFI and this may cause such behaviour.

But, in your case, and especially when the bike ran on a single cylinder, it's another story. I would bring it back to the dealer. With the Mathesys, he will surely find error codes in the EFI memory, giving him explanations to fix your problem.