[sheel]

Well... my saga with issues continue.

TLDR: supposedly my top piston has no compression, no CEL, but have received P0172 and P0175 (rich banks) codes. Ducati wants to deny me warranty because of mods. Looking for guidance on how to approach this issue, as my mods are pretty standard and the ECU flash is nothing more than fueling adjustment to keep things smooth.

—-
Extending from my other thread, I was having issues with the Rexxer tune, but seemingly worked it out w/ Rexxer. Took the bike on a trip up to Bend, OR from San Francisco, and started having issues. Local Ducati dealer picked up the bike a couple weeks ago to inspect it, and they say the top cylinder has no compression. I could use some guidance, as the dealer wants to deny me warranty because of my mods, which consists of -

• Rexxer ECU tune
• Comp Werkes exhaust
• MWR PUK
• EVAP can removed

Symptoms / long story -

• After getting the Rexxer tune situated, the bike was running super smooth and strong
• The day of departure, was on a 6 hour ride out past Sacramento, where it was pretty hot 95F+ degrees or so, but nothing crazy for the area, and was moving in traffic at 80 mph
• Got to a gas station to fill up, started the bike and it started funny... like a very very weak/wimpy start
• Thought nothing of it, and rode up a 5 mile hill climb... while going up the hill felt the bike being sluggish, but I figured it was cause we were at elevation (like 2.5k feet) combined with hot air temps
• Got to the top of the hill and felt the bike bogging / choking and wanted to cut out... so i pulled off onto the shoulder, and the bike shutdown on its own. Noticed oil smoke coming out of the intake - I have the MWR PUK
• Tore down the air box, didn’t see any oil inside, but smelled oil fumes... oil looked ok through the window, good on level, no foaming
• Camped there overnight since the sun was setting and in the early morning, I went to the nearest auto store and did an emergency oil change, inspected the plugs, etc... nothing seems weird, but the bike felt weak on startup... Oil levels were all good - it fired up no issues, but also the engine was already hot
• A couple hours later, bike started to feel down on power again. Checked ECU getting P0172 and P0175 codes, which are “running rich” codes on each bank... (No CEL)
• Reset ECU, bike felt strong for a while... but again, later in the day, started to act up, and it wanted to cut out... being boggy
• Made it to Bend... reset the ECU in the morning, felt pretty good, but by the end of the day, same codes (no CEL)
• Rested the next day, cleaned the air intake an MAP just in case something was clogged up
• Bike was acting weird on startup, but after clearing codes and resetting ECU, it fired right up (no CEL)
• Fourth day went for a ride, intermittent issues but did mostly well... much cooler temps
• Heading home, from Bend, bike tended to bog in hot weather... was getting the same codes... at this point, I figured it was probably the PCV valve that was blown out
• Stopped at a gas station, and noticed oil coming out of the breather hose, and coated my under tail and left side of my tire.. sketchy AF (still no CEL and no dash warnings)
• Made it home, limp mode, trying not do any kind of leaning on the left
• Shut the bike down, didn’t start it up or ride It again
• Scheduled my shop to pick up the bike (tow service), it started up really rough...
• They called me today and told me my top cylinder has lost compression... and that a rebuild would not be covered under warranty

 

[Rewild]

Sorry to read about all your issues. It's easy to think that the issues you've had are related to the rexxer or other mods you've made but a lack of compression can only be a symptom of a mechanical fault. I'd guess that'd be either piston rings or valves or valve train problems. Maybe a burnt valve which could be caused by lean running and the after market exhaust. I think you've got a battle on your hands with Ducati honouring the warranty but a full diagnosis is the first step. Good luck.

 

[K1W1]

With the mods you have done many of which affect engine tune I believe Ducati will be perfectly within their rights to deny warranty support. The apparent damage is directly related to items that are within the scope of the modifications that you have made. If for example you had a brake problem as you have not changed those imo Ducati would be obligated to do a warranty repair.

 

[Deano968]

Sadly, I think K1W1 might be right. I'd still push hard though you never know, and good luck.

 

[K1W1]

Basically the onus now is going to be on the OP and the vendors of the accessories he used to prove that they did not cause the problem. Until or unless he can do that Ducati will be quite within their rights to point at the mods and blame them. They cannot and will not take responsibility for other manufacturers products.

 

[sheel]

Sorry to read about all your issues. It's easy to think that the issues you've had are related to the rexxer or other mods you've made but a lack of compression can only be a symptom of a mechanical fault. I'd guess that'd be either piston rings or valves or valve train problems. Maybe a burnt valve which could be caused by lean running and the after market exhaust. I think you've got a battle on your hands with Ducati honouring the warranty but a full diagnosis is the first step. Good luck.

Thanks dude. It seem unlikely due to the Rexxer, since that’s merely a fuel mapping. Spoke to a couple shops, and they agree. The tune would have to be grossly screwed up to cause this kind of issue. And this Rexxer’s standard tune for the 2019 DS.

With the mods you have done many of which affect engine tune I believe Ducati will be perfectly within their rights to deny warranty support. The apparent damage is directly related to items that are within the scope of the modifications that you have made. If for example you had a brake problem as you have not changed those imo Ducati would be obligated to do a warranty repair.

Basically the onus now is going to be on the OP and the vendors of the accessories he used to prove that they did not cause the problem. Until or unless he can do that Ducati will be quite within their rights to point at the mods and blame them. They cannot and will not take responsibility for other manufacturers products.

So at a surface level, that’s how it might appear. However, Ducati have not determined the root cause by actually inspecting the engine components. They’ve (the shop) simply come out and denied warranty due to having the modifications. 1. This is against US law 2. It doesn’t logically consider the types of modifications made towards root-cause 3. The modifications I have on the bike are common on the market.

For example, this amount of oil in the air box and loss of cylinder compression could be from piston rings going out. This would not be caused by any of the modifications I’ve listed. But more possible would be a quality issue with the piston wall plating deteriorating and the piston rings sticking to the walls. Point being, the engine would need to inspected by a competent mechanic to determine root cause. But they’ve immediately denied warranty. But, yes, I do agree that the situation is not as straightforward since the mods introduce a variable to how the bike came off the factory line.

I’m also not sure the compression is gone - I wish I had my compression tool on me and was able to do a test before sending it off to the shop. My original suspicious was that this was due to the PCV failing on the crankcase. The symptoms started with a weak startup, loss of power, and oil smoke coming out of the intake - the PCV/crankcase breather releases pressure and routes gasses/oil to be routed back into the intake.

At this point, it feels like I’m being taken for a ride due to the mods.

I’ll be contacting the original shop I bought the bike from to see if they would be able to help me out. Otherwise, I might have to seek legal advice and get an independent engine builder to diagnose the issue.

 

[Rewild]

Piston ring failure sounds the most probable cause. Try and get compression test results before stripping anything down. It's a shame it's on the upright cylinder, so much more inaccessible. Nothing you've done would cause that so you might get covered under the warranty but I'm sure you'll have to argue your point hard.

 

[Rewild]

Just one more thought, before you do any diagnostics try removing the rexxer mapping and get it back to the stock fuelling map. All your problems seem to have only developed since getting the rexxer mapping. At least you'd be sure it wasn't that causing the problems. We can all remember fiddling around with jetting carbs years ago and suffering the same kind of problems, bogging down, shutting off and hot running. The pcv may have always behaved as described, you just had no cause to inspect previously. Anyway I hope you get to the root of it without costing much, it's so easy to over think a problem, I do it all the time and kick myself later when I discover it's something easy like a dodgy earth connection after ripping out sensors etc. Good luck.

 

[sheel]

Piston ring failure sounds the most probable cause. Try and get compression test results before stripping anything down. It's a shame it's on the upright cylinder, so much more inaccessible. Nothing you've done would cause that so you might get covered under the warranty but I'm sure you'll have to argue your point hard.

Just one more thought, before you do any diagnostics try removing the rexxer mapping and get it back to the stock fuelling map. All your problems seem to have only developed since getting the rexxer mapping. At least you'd be sure it wasn't that causing the problems. We can all remember fiddling around with jetting carbs years ago and suffering the same kind of problems, bogging down, shutting off and hot running. The pcv may have always behaved as described, you just had no cause to inspect previously. Anyway I hope you get to the root of it without costing much, it's so easy to over think a problem, I do it all the time and kick myself later when I discover it's something easy like a dodgy earth connection after ripping out sensors etc. Good luck.

Thanks, yeah if I can’t work this out w/ the shop, I’ll pick up the bike and do a compression test myself.

For the bogging/stalling, yeah I put the map to stock for a bit and was seeing the same issues. However, When I reset the codes on the ECU (P0172/P0175) and Adaptive, the bogging would stop and the engine would feel strong/normal, until the codes were thrown again. There were never any CELs on the dash. So it seems mechanical.

The Rexxer settled nicely after the third map was provided. The bogging and oil in aribox started on a very hot day, which I haven’t done much riding in. Usually it’s nice and cool out here on the Pacific Coast. There were no overheating lights on my dash though, so the engine should not have overheated.

 

[dunchooby]

Thanks, yeah if I can’t work this out w/ the shop, I’ll pick up the bike and do a compression test myself.

For the bogging/stalling, yeah I put the map to stock for a bit and was seeing the same issues. However, When I reset the codes on the ECU (P0172/P0175) and Adaptive, the bogging would stop and the engine would feel strong/normal, until the codes were thrown again. There were never any CELs on the dash. So it seems mechanical.

The Rexxer settled nicely after the third map was provided. The bogging and oil in aribox started on a very hot day, which I haven’t done much riding in. Usually it’s nice and cool out here on the Pacific Coast. There were no overheating lights on my dash though, so the engine should not have overheated.

What's the mileage on your engine and what oil are you using? How long has it been since the last change? I never had the CEL's pop but my bike was having very similar issues and a private Ducati mechanic figured out the hose from PCV valve was being pinched due to weird routing from the factory. He shoved a coil into the hose where it was being folded and that kept it open and straight allow the pressure to flow/vent correctly. Have you been keeping an eye on the oil levels? During this weird period I was consuming an unusually high amount of oil and had to keep adding. After a full oil change, valve adjustment, and this PCV fix my issues went away and its been roughly 5,000 very hard miles and the symptoms have not returned. Have you had a valve adjustment yet?

Another thing to consider, put all your mods back to stock and try a different Ducati dealer.

 

[sheel]

What's the mileage on your engine and what oil are you using? How long has it been since the last change? I never had the CEL's pop but my bike was having very similar issues and a private Ducati mechanic figured out the hose from PCV valve was being pinched due to weird routing from the factory. He shoved a coil into the hose where it was being folded and that kept it open and straight allow the pressure to flow/vent correctly. Have you been keeping an eye on the oil levels? During this weird period I was consuming an unusually high amount of oil and had to keep adding. After a full oil change, valve adjustment, and this PCV fix my issues went away and its been roughly 5,000 very hard miles and the symptoms have not returned. Have you had a valve adjustment yet?

Another thing to consider, put all your mods back to stock and try a different Ducati dealer.

Mileage is just under 8k, my plan was to finish this trip and send it in for the 7500 mile service - which I believe includes valves, oil, etc. When I started the trip, the oil was Motul and about 8 months and 5k miles old when the initial problem started - bogging and visible smoke from the air box (I have the MWR PUK, so the smoke was escaping through the side filters). I immediately did an emergency oil change with Mobile 1 10w40 4T oil the next morning, so that new oil only had about 1-2k miles on it before the oil started dumping into the air box.

Dumping so much that when I stopped for fuel, there was a significant puddle under neath the bike, the entire rear was covered, and even my buddy’s bike had oil spray on his bike from riding behind me :|

Up until this issue, the bike hasn’t lost any oil - no leaks, no burning, never any hesitation. I assumed it was a PCV issue because I was getting P0172 and P0175 codes (no CEL on the dash) and when I reset those, the bike would run like normal - of course, it would revert back to bogging and the codes after a bit of riding.

I considered reverting the mods back, but didn‘t want to hide anything and be straight up. Also, the air box is physically modded w/ the MWR PUK and I have a Rexxer tune which can revert back to the stock tune but a signature is left on the ECU.

Appreciate the insight into your issue, were you loosing oil into the air box?

 

[dunchooby]

Mileage is just under 8k, my plan was to finish this trip and send it in for the 7500 mile service - which I believe includes valves, oil, etc. When I started the trip, the oil was Motul and about 8 months and 5k miles old when the initial problem started - bogging and visible smoke from the air box (I have the MWR PUK, so the smoke was escaping through the side filters). I immediately did an emergency oil change with Mobile 1 10w40 4T oil the next morning, so that new oil only had about 1-2k miles on it before the oil started dumping into the air box.

Dumping so much that when I stopped for fuel, there was a significant puddle under neath the bike, the entire rear was covered, and even my buddy’s bike had oil spray on his bike from riding behind me :|

Up until this issue, the bike hasn’t lost any oil - no leaks, no burning, never any hesitation. I assumed it was a PCV issue because I was getting P0172 and P0175 codes (no CEL on the dash) and when I reset those, the bike would run like normal - of course, it would revert back to bogging and the codes after a bit of riding.

I considered reverting the mods back, but didn‘t want to hide anything and be straight up. Also, the air box is physically modded w/ the MWR PUK and I have a Rexxer tune which can revert back to the stock tune but a signature is left on the ECU.

Appreciate the insight into your issue, were you loosing oil into the air box?

Finally got around the checking my airbox and changing the filter, I do have some oil mist around the crank case breather hose and inside the airbox. There was also a really strong gas smell as soon as I opened it, but besides that it runs great and oil level seems to stay put now, I was burning a liter/1000 miles before the previous fix. Also something else to note, during this weird period I had riders behind me noticing puffs of smoke from my exhaust during high RPM up/down shifting, this has stopped. I can see how catastrophic failure would occur if your bike was running weird like this and having issues with the fuel tuning. It's been a while, have you had any luck on your end?

 

[sheel]

Update on my situation, I did a borescope inspection and compression test today. If anyone knows how to read engine conditions, would appreciate any help. From what I can tell, the issue seems to be a failed piston rings on the top/vertical cylinder (possibly caused by bad PCV valve?), and this would not be caused by the mods above.

Compression Test

• Cold Engine (sitting for over a month) - 75 psi horizontal cylinder (bottom), 0 psi vertical cylinder (top)
• Hot Engine - 160 psi horizontal cylinder, 25 psi vertical cylinder

Borescope (videos below)

• The valves look in great condition - no warping
• One of the vales on the vert cyl. may have some light carbon build up
• Normal carbon buildup on piston heads
• No signs of excessive oil in the cylinders
• Horizonal cyl. walls look perfect
• Vertical cyl. wall looks like it might have some light scuffing
• I suspect the carbon build up was exacerbated when the oil blow-by issues started

I reset all codes and put the stock ECU map back on and took it for a short ride, had the same symptoms of weak startup, rough idle, and the engine wanting to cut out after riding and getting into neutral.

Borescope videos

Vertical Cyl. Valves

Vertical Cyl. Wall

 

[sheel]

Horizontal Cyl. Valves

Horizontal Cyl. Wall

 

[Rewild]

Have you had any reaction from your dealer yet? It does sound like a broken piston ring unfortunately. I'm not sure what could have caused this and hopefully it'll be covered by your warranty. It's certainly not common so most likely due to a faulty ring.

 

[mpersin1]

Well... my saga with issues continue.

TLDR: supposedly my top piston has no compression, no CEL, but have received P0172 and P0175 (rich banks) codes. Ducati wants to deny me warranty because of mods. Looking for guidance on how to approach this issue, as my mods are pretty standard and the ECU flash is nothing more than fueling adjustment to keep things smooth.

—-
Extending from my other thread, I was having issues with the Rexxer tune, but seemingly worked it out w/ Rexxer. Took the bike on a trip up to Bend, OR from San Francisco, and started having issues. Local Ducati dealer picked up the bike a couple weeks ago to inspect it, and they say the top cylinder has no compression. I could use some guidance, as the dealer wants to deny me warranty because of my mods, which consists of -

• Rexxer ECU tune
• Comp Werkes exhaust
• MWR PUK
• EVAP can removed

Symptoms / long story -

• After getting the Rexxer tune situated, the bike was running super smooth and strong
• The day of departure, was on a 6 hour ride out past Sacramento, where it was pretty hot 95F+ degrees or so, but nothing crazy for the area, and was moving in traffic at 80 mph
• Got to a gas station to fill up, started the bike and it started funny... like a very very weak/wimpy start
• Thought nothing of it, and rode up a 5 mile hill climb... while going up the hill felt the bike being sluggish, but I figured it was cause we were at elevation (like 2.5k feet) combined with hot air temps
• Got to the top of the hill and felt the bike bogging / choking and wanted to cut out... so i pulled off onto the shoulder, and the bike shutdown on its own. Noticed oil smoke coming out of the intake - I have the MWR PUK
• Tore down the air box, didn’t see any oil inside, but smelled oil fumes... oil looked ok through the window, good on level, no foaming
• Camped there overnight since the sun was setting and in the early morning, I went to the nearest auto store and did an emergency oil change, inspected the plugs, etc... nothing seems weird, but the bike felt weak on startup... Oil levels were all good - it fired up no issues, but also the engine was already hot
• A couple hours later, bike started to feel down on power again. Checked ECU getting P0172 and P0175 codes, which are “running rich” codes on each bank... (No CEL)
• Reset ECU, bike felt strong for a while... but again, later in the day, started to act up, and it wanted to cut out... being boggy
• Made it to Bend... reset the ECU in the morning, felt pretty good, but by the end of the day, same codes (no CEL)
• Rested the next day, cleaned the air intake an MAP just in case something was clogged up
• Bike was acting weird on startup, but after clearing codes and resetting ECU, it fired right up (no CEL)
• Fourth day went for a ride, intermittent issues but did mostly well... much cooler temps
• Heading home, from Bend, bike tended to bog in hot weather... was getting the same codes... at this point, I figured it was probably the PCV valve that was blown out
• Stopped at a gas station, and noticed oil coming out of the breather hose, and coated my under tail and left side of my tire.. sketchy AF (still no CEL and no dash warnings)
• Made it home, limp mode, trying not do any kind of leaning on the left
• Shut the bike down, didn’t start it up or ride It again
• Scheduled my shop to pick up the bike (tow service), it started up really rough...
• They called me today and told me my top cylinder has lost compression... and that a rebuild would not be covered under warranty

Unfortunately it sound like what haooened to me. Took 3 monnths and a total rebuild. Exact symptoms. Cracked piston head. Thank god for warranties.

 

[Rewild]

Is that damage showing on the crown of the vertical cylinder boroscope video. It looks like shiny melted alloy. Could it be a hole in the piston crown?